Darren Hudson is an honest-to-goodness real-life lumberjack. He doesn’t just look the part, he comes by it honestly. His family ran a sawmill since 1883, his mother was a competitive logroller, his uncle was a 9-time world champion logroller and Darren himself is a 7-time world champion logroller. At the peak of his career, Darren decided to retire from lumberjack sports, looking for a new challenge. In 2012 he opened a lumberjack training camp. In 2016 Darren opened the first licensed indoor axe-throwing facility in the world. Since then, axe-throwing has become a popular recreational activity. It's also a highly social activity. So how did Timber Lounge manage during the lockdowns when social activities couldn’t take place? Listen to find out.
You can learn more about Timber Lounge at timberlounge.ca.
Al Grego:
Hello, everyone. I'm Al Grego, and this is the Yes We Are Open podcast.
I'm back in Moncton, New Brunswick. A few weeks ago, I shared with you the story of Spin It Records and Video, one of the city's long-standing businesses. This week we'll learn about one of the newer editions to Moncton's downtown core. But first, a little tourism. According to a quick Google search, here are a few of the top places to visit in Moncton. The Bay of Fundy Tidal Bore, where twice a day you can witness some of the world's highest tides as water rushes in through the Bay of Fundy. Hopewell Rocks, also known as the Flower Pot Rocks, which were carved by the Fundy tides from high adjoining cliffs. Some of these are as tall as 21 meters above the ocean floor. Fort Boishébert is a national historical site. If you recall back to the Spin It episode, it was a fort captured by Lieutenant Colonel Robert Moncton from the French in 1755.
Then of course, is Magnetic Hill, just north of the city, one of Canada's most visited natural wonders. It's not really magnetic, it just creates the optical illusion that the road you're on is going up, when in fact, it's going down. So if you put your car neutral, it feels like you're rolling uphill. There are many other attractions in and around the city of Moncton, but those were the ones that stood out to me. Then there's Moncton's downtown core. Now, if you didn't know any better, you'd swear that it was a downtown of a much larger city. Plenty of shops, restaurants, and hotels along Main Street, which is where I am. Literally a four minute walk west from Spin It Records along Main Street, stopping just short of City Hall and up Orange Lane past the Pump House Brew Pub in Saigon Thai, to the subject of this week's episode, Timber Lounge.
Louie:
The Momentum and the way that you throw it, it's a bit more intuitive than smaller ax. Smaller ax, I have a hard time throwing these myself, all right? They're too light.
Al Grego:
That's Louie. Louie's a member here at Timber Lounge, which is by the way, Atlantic Canada's premier ax throwing facility. Louie's giving me my first lesson in throwing a double bit ax.
Louie:
The first one today, whichever way it feels comfortable to you, either left leg forward or right leg forward. And then same thing, I would say using my-
Al Grego:
Louis's colleague Matt is recording this session for either my embarrassment or for posterity. We'll find out in a second which it is. Louis hands me the largest ax available, apparently judging me by my size. It's pretty heavy, not going to lie. I'm a bit nervous. I'm watching and listening intently, hoping not to embarrass myself.
Louie:
One movement, you're going to leave that.
Al Grego:
Louie throws a perfect bullseye, and it's my turn.
Louie:
Perfect. See, a natural.
Al Grego:
On my first shot. Beginner's luck.
Louie:
That's all it takes. [inaudible 00:03:02] is the same thing-
Al Grego:
Following my triumphant debut, I take a second shot, and miss horribly. So much for going pro. I decided to quit while I was ahead and retire with my 500 average intact.
Yeah, we won't do that again, 'cause that was beginner's luck.
I soon learned from my new friends that there's a whole world of ax throwing that I had no idea existed.
World Championship was here when?
Speaker 1:
It was in Barrington, Nova Scotia.
Al Grego:
Barrington Nova Scotia.
Speaker 1:
Last summer.
Al Grego:
Last summer.
Louie:
2022, yeah, it was in Barrington.
Al Grego:
How many countries competed in this?
Speaker 1:
On top of my head, I know there was Estonia, Germany, England, and then there was Scotland, if you want to split them in two. Canada, and I believe US as well. There might be a few more. That's just off the top of my head.
Al Grego:
And how did Canada do?
Louie:
That's a good question.
Al Grego:
Not too sure. I didn't attend the tournament myself.
Speaker 1:
On the women's side, however, our very own Bree at the bar here actually did compete in the worlds.
Al Grego:
Oh wow.
Louie:
And she did it really good, actually featured on TSN.
Al Grego:
Cool. I'll talk to Bree in a little bit, but first, I caught up with the owner of Timber Lounge, who wasn't there during my visit, later on Zoom.
Darren Hudson:
Hi, I'm Darren Hudson, owner of the Timber Lounge, seven time World Champion log roller, and here for your listening pleasure.
Al Grego:
Oh, you buried the league on the log rolling thing. That's amazing.
Darren Hudson:
Oh yes.
Al Grego:
Well, you compete at the Highland Games or something or where's the log rolling?
Darren Hudson:
I compete at the Lumberjack Sports World Championships that's been held since 1889, where lumberjacks meet to test their skills against one another, and log rolling is my discipline of choice, where two people stand on a log trying to spin each other into the water for top of the log supremacy.
Al Grego:
Amazing.
Darren Hudson:
And [inaudible 00:04:45] I've won seven world titles. After I retired from lumberjack sports, I moved back to Nova Scotia from traveling, mostly North America, a little Europe, and overseas as well.
Al Grego:
Is that where you're originally from, from Nova Scotia? Born and raised?
Darren Hudson:
Yes.
Al Grego:
Yeah? Okay.
Darren Hudson:
My family had a sawmill since 1883.
Al Grego:
Wow. So it's really in your blood. You have sawdust in your blood.
Darren Hudson:
Sawdust in my veins. You bet you, Al. That is definitely the case.
Al Grego:
That's amazing.
Darren Hudson:
So I come by it very honestly. My whole family's been involved. My mom used to be a log roller. She'd compete in the States in the '70s. Of course, my uncle, he was nine time world champion.
Al Grego:
Of course.
Darren Hudson:
So as a kid, I'd grow up with dreams of following in the family's footsteps.
Al Grego:
Okay. So I mean, there's a little bit of your past there. Let's talk about how Timber Lounge started. First of all, when did you open Timber Lounge?
Darren Hudson:
So 2012, I initiated a lumberjack training camp, in which we would do an experience-based visit. People could try log rolling, tree climbing, ax throwing, bow saw, and crosscut, and ax throwing was the most accessible one,, and it really caught on like wildfire. Then that turned into a kids' training camp where we were able to get the youth involved as well, as do these corporate team-building sessions that I basically developed my business model after a friend of mine in Denmark. He did corporate team-building for lumberjack sports outside of Copenhagen, and had some really great clients, and I knew that was a great model. Venues started popping up around North America. I was the first licensed indoor ax throwing facility in the world.
Al Grego:
Oh wow.
Darren Hudson:
In 2016. Basically, it was a roof over our head so we could do all year round the thing that we loved. we were already doing ax throwing leagues, we were doing our kids' camps, log rolling training, all that stuff, developing great friendships and sharing this lifestyle together. Then the Timber Lounge started in Halifax, Nova Scotia in 2016, and it was really an incredible experience and one, when people left the Timber Lounge, they were on cloud nine. I know we were creating memories that resonated throughout the business community, and the value was realized and reciprocated, and we've been enjoying it ever since.
Al Grego:
So that was in Halifax in 2016. Is that the location you're in now, or did you change locations?
Darren Hudson:
Due to developments, the area now is a new high-rise building, and we're now in downtown Dartmouth, which is the hip and happening spot to be in the city right now with friends. New Scotland Brewery. They have a brewery in the basement, patio upstairs adjacent to us here, where we are able to have a street side presence.
Al Grego:
Nice.
Darren Hudson:
Bringing people in to our beautiful, compact, and manageable location here at 16 Portland Street in downtown Dartmouth.
Al Grego:
Way to get the address in there. All right, when do you open your Moncton location?
Darren Hudson:
When it was time to expand, we looked at Moncton. We set our sights on Moncton as soon as it was really practical for us. We started our build two years after we started our first location in Halifax. Moncton was actually open in 2019, on 19 Orange Lane, on January 19th in downtown Moncton, we opened our doors.
Bree Stewart:
Hi, my name's Bree Stewart. I'm the manager here at the Moncton Timber Lounge. I've been with the business for almost three years now.
Al Grego:
Three years. Why ax throwing?
Bree Stewart:
Well, at the time, it just seemed like a really exciting, fun job. It was something new to Moncton, and I think new to the bar scene as well, a new idea. It just sounded like a really fun gig, and I got into it.
Al Grego:
I've heard from some of your patrons that you're a competitive ax thrower. When did that start?
Bree Stewart:
Well, I started out coaching here, so I wasn't quite bar managing yet, and I got really into the sport of ax throwing. When the opportunity came up this year, Nova Scotia actually hosted the World Championships, and that was close enough to me. So when the opportunity came up, I said, "Well, I'm never going to be able to do this again. This is a one shot thing." So I went and I qualified, and I practiced, and I competed in the World championships.
Al Grego:
Amazing. How'd you do?
Bree Stewart:
I placed 12th in the world, which I was not expecting. I just kind of went for fun. I thought it would be a cool experience to meet people and yeah, I'm happy with where I placed, basically. Yeah.
Al Grego:
Are there any other ax throwing places nearby, or is this the first in the province, or?
Bree Stewart:
Yeah, this is the first and only ax throwing bar that's doing what we're doing with the double bit ax throwing. We kind of have things set up on a competitive level as well, which is really interesting. There are some other hatchet bars around, but nothing quite like what we're doing here. We do a little bit of everything, which is awesome. We've got a huge space here, and we really wanted to use it, so we're kind of capitalizing on all of that. We've got a lot of merch and local stuff for sale. We've got a kitchen, we offer food. We have a bunch of local drinks here. We also have a great space for music, so we've got a music venue here, and kind of a corporate venue as well. We do a lot of little conferences and whatever comes up.
Eddie Arsenault:
My name is Eddie Arsenault. I've been working here pretty well since the Timber Lounge opened. I think I started working here about three weeks in. I first started here part time, but I've been here full-time close to two years now.
Al Grego:
Why ax throwing? Was this something you were doing before, or did you just get into it when this place opened?
Eddie Arsenault:
I just got into it when this place opened. I'd come here for a staff party with my previous job, and I'd coincidentally seen just a couple of days before online that they were looking to hire some folks, and it just happened that the owner, Darren, was in that night, and I told him I was going to apply for the job, and yeah, I got the job.
Al Grego:
What was your previous job?
Eddie Arsenault:
My previous job, I worked for Maritime Broadcasting radio station company here in the Maritimes. I was doing the morning show on 99.9 FM, just Acadian Country music.
Al Grego:
The morning show?
Eddie Arsenault:
The morning show. Yep.
Al Grego:
That's a big deal.
Eddie Arsenault:
Yeah.
Al Grego:
This looks like a fun job, but you were on the morning show.
Eddie Arsenault:
Yes, I was.
Al Grego:
So don't you miss that?
Eddie Arsenault:
Sort of, yeah. Sort of, yeah. But I was getting a little tired of sitting behind the computer all day, if you know what I mean. I like working with my hands.
Al Grego:
Plus you didn't want to wake up that early every morning.
Eddie Arsenault:
That's part of the reason.
Al Grego:
Wow, that's interesting.
Eddie Arsenault:
When it first opened, everybody was having a blast. Nowadays, people, groups come in and some of them have been here seven, eight times, but right in the beginning, everybody was always a first timer, so it was a little more of a challenge training some of the people in the beginning, because they had no previous experience and I didn't have as much experience coaching them.
Darren Hudson:
At that time, it was already known. The Timber Lounge had a great presence. We were established for three years, and we already had a lot of business traffic coming from Moncton, Moncton being an area that has a lot of Atlantic Canadian headquarters. We would get a lot of team building opportunities coming from the headquarters, doing a conference in Dartmouth or Halifax. So they would bring a business crew and meet up at the Timber Lounge. So when the opportunity arose to have a location in Moncton, those companies would come in three to four times a year and do a conference at our location. So they were happy, and we knew it would be a very sensible location, being that Moncton is a hub for business and those business team building companies were the ones that were sustaining our offering.
Al Grego:
I got my first bullseye on my first shot. I mean, I had a good instructor, but I can see how it could get a pretty addictive.
Darren Hudson:
You're very, very smooth operator. I'm sure you just slid that bullseye right in there, no problem. And you know what, Al? I'm sure your expectations were very low, being a humble guy, and those are the ones that excel. It's the quiet person at the office that you would not expect that has the exact same experience. They go in there, and that is the biggest reward, not only for the individual, but also for us. We love to see the potentials that people don't really know that they have deep within inside of themselves, and they bring that out, and it's just an exponential reward.
Al Grego:
It was very fun.
Darren Hudson:
That is so gratifying for everybody. That is the sustainability of ax throwing. It's incredible for us.
Bree Stewart:
This place, it's very unique. There was a lot of love put into it, as you can see looking around all of the paintings and little artifacts. Those are Darren's grandfather's snowshoes over there in the corner and lots of little things.
Al Grego:
I love the murals. They're really nice.
Bree Stewart:
So that's a local artist, Linda McConnell, and she did all of the murals in the building.
Darren Hudson:
Passing on the skills that I've accumulated through my lifetime career of lumberjack sports, traveling the world, learning from the best, and applying those tricks and my passion, mostly, to what I love the most. I love building community, and this is my way of giving back. I've met some great people, and I want to build a place that I could safely say, "Come here and see what I have built with these incredible people that I am dying for you to meet."
Al Grego:
Up next, Darren has exceeded in turning his passion for lumberjack sports into a unique business with a great, enthusiastic staff and loyal patrons. But ax throwing's a social activity. What happens when social activities aren't allowed? How will Timber Lounge survive? Stay tuned to find out.
You're listening to Yes, we Are Open. Darren Hudson is a real life, honest-to-goodness lumberjack. He's got the family history and credentials to prove it. So when it came time to open an ax throwing bar, he was the perfect person for the job, turning Timber Lounge into Atlantic Canada's premier ax throwing facility. We know Darren the lumberjack knows axes, but can Darren the business owner navigate two years of pandemic and lockdowns? Let's find out.
Can you think of any event or anything that's happened in your 11 years of business that have maybe threatened the business?
Darren Hudson:
Definitely the pandemic was the biggest nightmare I could ever imagined. Setting into something like what we offer, which is definitely a enjoyment, entertainment-based business.
Al Grego:
And a social business.
Darren Hudson:
Social business. Yeah, that too. Coming from a lumberjack sports and entertainment background, as I venture into a new endeavor, I thought of what's the worst thing that could possibly happen? And definitely, the pandemic was what was in my mind as the worst possible thing that could happen.
Eddie Arsenault:
I was a little bit worried. Of course, we were doing all the precautions at the time, what we were told was the right thing to do. So we were wiping everything down, wearing masks and such. But after a while, the rules just started getting stricter and stricter every week from the different phases, until one point we were in the red phase and we got a message on our group chat on Facebook. "Well, the bar's closing down. You're all officially laid off."
Bree Stewart:
We had food and sitting, so we couldn't have our doors open. We also were seen as a recreational sport, so we couldn't have our doors open then. Every new thing that came up, we qualified for, because we do a little bit of everything. So yeah, we had our doors shut for a long time, or severe restrictions.
Al Grego:
I believe in Moncton, the lockdowns happened for what, a couple of months? Was it the same in Nova Scotia?
Darren Hudson:
Yeah, absolutely. I think actually worse than Nova Scotia.
Al Grego:
During that time, was there anything you guys were doing to stay in the black, or just had to kind of wait it out?
Darren Hudson:
Yeah, so basically what we did is what we were allowed to do, and everything that we could imaginable. Really, we just tried to think out of the box, within the parameters of that box. So we were allowed to, at one time, do family circles, so we promoted family outings.
Bree Stewart:
During one of our closures, we were just running takeout out of the kitchen, just to get by, and we were filling growlers of local beer just to get by, and things like that.
Darren Hudson:
I think you could do one person ax throwing tournaments while your growler was being filled, so people would pay per person, one in the building at a time, to come in and throw and have their growler filled. Their score was recorded, and then they entered an online tournament, and we gave away prizes to the winner.
Al Grego:
That's amazing.
Darren Hudson:
That's where we were at.
Al Grego:
But that's a nice creative solution, I guess, to keep things going.
Darren Hudson:
It was.
Al Grego:
Yeah. That's great.
Darren Hudson:
I'm always a guy that, I'm willing to think side of the box. If there's an avenue, I'm going to be excited. I go, "Okay, that's what we're doing. Okay, great. Let's do that." I love a challenge, but I wouldn't ask for this challenge again.
Al Grego:
No.
Darren Hudson:
The biggest challenge and adversity that we've faced is definitely the inability to host bigger group functions. And so we've seen those times, we've had to roll with the punches. Definitely where we excel is having big corporate functions.
Al Grego:
Yeah, that's great.
Darren Hudson:
Being able to facilitate that in a orderly manner.
Al Grego:
When were you finally able to open for business again, roughly? Do you remember?
Bree Stewart:
Basically, once the social distancing mandates went down, we were good to go.
Al Grego:
How did that feel?
Bree Stewart:
It felt really good. Yeah, it felt awesome, because this is a very community-oriented bar. Like I said, we have a league, we've got a lot of regulars. I mean, our whole thing is bringing in groups of people to come do something together, so it was great to have that community back.
Darren Hudson:
When we were able to do anything to the degree of the capacity that we could facilitate, we were just championing that opportunity. Things just really came together, and people were excited for sure.
Bree Stewart:
We didn't know, post pandemic, how busy we could be. The potential of the business, because we didn't have an honest go at it yet. So now we're really seeing it picking up and taking off.
Darren Hudson:
I would say this past Christmas and early January, it was stellar. I would say it was interesting, because I know we were getting people that had a little bit of budget for team building opportunities. They were actually spending that money because they had it, they hadn't used it, and they had to use it before March. So we had a lot of desperate calls coming through saying, "Oh, it's coming into our year end, and we have this money." I was definitely thankful for that, and I was happy to see people getting out, because they deserved to be out with their company. What we provided was exactly what they needed to do.
Al Grego:
Perfect.
Darren Hudson:
And that's to get together with friends and celebrate a lasting memory and experience,
Bree Stewart:
We started out with a really small core group of people, and now we've got too many people signed up. We can't even accept all of the memberships, which is amazing to be able to go through the pandemic and then come out even bigger on the other side. So it may have started out with maybe 15 people in our league, and now there's like 45, 50 people.
Al Grego:
Wow. That's great.
Darren Hudson:
When we were crawling, they were there at our door. We were running, and then we were walking, then we were crawling on our bellies, and we made it through because of the people that believed in us and stood by us. And that's the part that was so incredible and that's the part that I'll never forget and that will stand the test of time right there. The thing that Moneris did for us is be there when we most needed it. So it's one of those things that if it works, it's probably going to be the unsung hero, but if it doesn't, you know you're going to notice it right away. So it's being there for us when it's Saturday night at 7:30 and the staff is maxed out and we're trying to keep up. If things go right without a hitch, don't you worry, we notice and we appreciate that.
Al Grego:
Coming up after the break, we find out what the future holds for Timber Lounge.
Cass McPhee:
Success in business doesn't come without moments of struggle. Moments when you had to face your challenges head on. As the proud partner of Canadian business, Moneris plays a critical role in empowering businesses with the payment processing tools they need to succeed. Together, we are building stronger businesses, where business owners everywhere can stand up to their challenges without slowing down. Moneris. Proud partner of Canadian business.
Al Grego:
Welcome back to Yes, we Are Open. Darren and his staff at Timber Lounge have had a rough go of the past couple of years trying to keep their new Moncton location afloat during the pandemic. Luckily, they were up to the task, and now that things have opened up, they're busier than ever. So what does the future hold for Timber Lounge? Let's find out.
You guys survived basically what you said is probably your darkest hour so far, and you're on the other end of it now, hopefully. Let's talk about the future of Timber Lounge. What are your hopes for the future at Timber Lounge?
Darren Hudson:
I just opened a new location seven months ago, and things are right where they should be right now and things are falling into place. As a guy who's never satisfied, I don't want to just clock in, clock out. I want to develop something new, interesting, exciting.
Al Grego:
Any plans for expansion maybe in other cities?
Darren Hudson:
I don't know that I will. I am into perfection, and I like what we have. I can see small startups in small clubs, in small grassroots operations that I can help facilitate. I'm into that. Growing the family that way. But cookie cutter operations as a franchise-
Al Grego:
You're not interested in.
Darren Hudson:
They don't excite me as much as the things that I want to bring out that I have in my back burner.
Al Grego:
No. That's great.
Bree Stewart:
I think the future looks really good for Timber Lounge. I think I'm happy and surprised with how well we're doing post-pandemic. I think our league is growing. Like you mentioned, we're turning people away. I think the future will be more business, more employees, more hours. Yeah. I see a lot for our future. I think with a space this big, there's a lot of potential, and now we're able to really dive into that. I'd love to see this space as a music venue and then a bunch of things.
Eddie Arsenault:
I think it's just going to go up, because the sport of double bit ax throwing just seems to be getting more and more popular. I find every time somebody comes again, they seem to be having more fun. They seem to be a bit more serious about it, and people are always asking questions about the actual rules of the real sport, compared to the amateur version of what we do here. But yeah, I think it's only got up to go.
Darren Hudson:
For me, I'm a passion driven individual, and I definitely want to continue on what we've built so far, the community and where we can go with that community, and how we can keep it exciting. So I love what we've done. I think we're just getting started. Obviously, the team building potential is incredible, and I think that can be leveraged more. I think there's more that we can do.
Eddie Arsenault:
My future here? What would I like it to be? Well, I like working here. I live pretty well day by day, so yeah, the future is yet to be known.
Al Grego:
And what about the competition? Do you see yourself ever going back to tournaments?
Bree Stewart:
Maybe. The World Championships next time are in the UK. It's a little bit further to go, but if I'm ever in the position to go, I think I'd like to. Competing is a really good time, and I had a great experience the first time, so I won't say no if the opportunity comes up.
Darren Hudson:
I do miss competing and being a part of that world. So what I did from my professional lumberjack sports career is substituted with entrepreneurial ventures. My goals now is to succeed in this new challenge that we set out for ourselves. The timing was perfect for me, and I'm glad I had something to sink my teeth into.
Al Grego:
Thank you very much for your time today, Darren.
Darren Hudson:
Cheers. Remind me of when I was on Letterman that time and Dave goes-
Al Grego:
Wait a minute. You were on Letterman?
Darren Hudson:
Oh yeah, yeah. I was on Letterman there for a part of a promotion with ESPN.
Al Grego:
Oh really? When you were a world champ and stuff?
Darren Hudson:
Yeah, I was [inaudible 00:27:31] in there.
Al Grego:
You're being way too modest. These are the kind of stories we want on a podcast. That's amazing.
Darren Hudson:
Right on. Right on. And yeah, I was on David Letterman.
Al Grego:
Amazing.
Darren Hudson:
I was actually a stunt double for Cheaper by the Dozen 2's production starring Steve Martin and Eugene Levy as they went head to head in a log rolling competition. I was basically just Steve Martin's feet.
Al Grego:
Feet. Right. Yeah. That's amazing [inaudible 00:27:54]. I'm glad I caught that. Darren, is Timber Lounge open?
Darren Hudson:
Yeah. [foreign language 00:28:01]. Yes, we're open.
Al Grego:
Thank you so much, Darren.
That's the story of Timber Lounge. It's interesting to see what new activities capture the attention of the masses. I remember the first time I heard about an ax throwing facility opening near me. I didn't get it. I mean, I understood the concept, just not the appeal. I've had friends threaten to take me ax throwing and I've humored them, saying maybe one day, with little to no intention to actually follow through. But I get it now. Having only done it twice, I understand the attraction. It's the satisfaction of hitting that target, knowing that anyone can do it at least once by accident. I'm proof of that. And then with the right technique, repetition and consistency, anyone could be good at it consistently.
Restrictions have been lifted and after a long two years of working remotely, many companies are looking now more than ever for different ways to get their employees together in person for some team bonding and building. Timber Lounge is perfectly positioned to offer their solution, and demand is high for their solution. So I'd say Darren and his team are in for a very bright future indeed. As far as my ax throwing career is concerned, I may have been a bit premature in announcing my retirement. I might give it another shot, or throw, or whatever you call it, if not just to hear that satisfying thump on the target one more time.
Yes We Are Open as a Moneris podcast production. I'd like to thank Louie, Matt, Bree, Eddie, and Darren for taking the time to share their story with me. You can learn more about Timber Lounge at timberlounge.ca. Follow them on Facebook and Instagram @TimberLoungeMoncton, and on Twitter, they're @TimberLoungeax. For more information about this podcast, visit our site, YesWeAreOpenPodcast.com. If you'd like to support us, please write us a review on Apple Podcasts or rate us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a Canadian small business owner or know of one with an interesting story of perseverance to tell, I'd love to help tell it. You can contact me at podcast@moneris.com. Tune in next week for another story of small business struggle and survival on the Yes We Are Open podcast. I'm Al Grego. Thank you for listening.